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	<title>Comments on: Paying Down Debt vs. Contributing to an RRSP</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.investingintelligently.com/2007/02/07/paying-down-debt-vs-contributing-to-an-rrsp/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.investingintelligently.com/2007/02/07/paying-down-debt-vs-contributing-to-an-rrsp/</link>
	<description>Not just another (Canadian) financial blog</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 10:10:59 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.investingintelligently.com/2007/02/07/paying-down-debt-vs-contributing-to-an-rrsp/#comment-5885</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Feb 2007 07:15:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investingintelligently.com/2007/02/07/paying-down-debt-vs-contributing-to-an-rrsp/#comment-5885</guid>
		<description>Chris, well I am lazy so I'll make an approximation. I'll assume the $63/month needs to be paid for the entire duration that you have the mortgage. ie. from now until your equity is 100%. This will slant things a little bit but it will allow us to see how much things will change.

So in scenario 1 (RRSPs) instead of putting $8000 total into their RRSPs then can only put in $8000-($63*12). They pay that for their entire 20 years. In scenario 2 (debt paid) instead of putting down $8000 total into their RRSPs then can only put in $8000-($63*12) for the first 11 years, until their house is paid off. Then for the next 9 years they can put in $8000 into their RRSP.

This is a pretty gross approximation, but let's see if it worked.

Originally, the two plans worked out about the same if the rate of return on the RRSP was about 5.7%. When I added in the $63*12/year mortgage penalty the rate of return of the RRSP had to be upped to 6.6% in order to match the debt pay-down option. If you case, you stop paying the PMI sooner so this will have less impact than it did in my approximation.

Of course if your RRSP is smaller to start with than the couple in the example, than the lower RRSP contributions will make more of an impact. If you have a $1 million nest egg already, then the reduction in your RRSP contributions will be negligible.

Let me know if you want the spreadsheet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris, well I am lazy so I&#8217;ll make an approximation. I&#8217;ll assume the $63/month needs to be paid for the entire duration that you have the mortgage. ie. from now until your equity is 100%. This will slant things a little bit but it will allow us to see how much things will change.</p>
<p>So in scenario 1 (RRSPs) instead of putting $8000 total into their RRSPs then can only put in $8000-($63*12). They pay that for their entire 20 years. In scenario 2 (debt paid) instead of putting down $8000 total into their RRSPs then can only put in $8000-($63*12) for the first 11 years, until their house is paid off. Then for the next 9 years they can put in $8000 into their RRSP.</p>
<p>This is a pretty gross approximation, but let&#8217;s see if it worked.</p>
<p>Originally, the two plans worked out about the same if the rate of return on the RRSP was about 5.7%. When I added in the $63*12/year mortgage penalty the rate of return of the RRSP had to be upped to 6.6% in order to match the debt pay-down option. If you case, you stop paying the PMI sooner so this will have less impact than it did in my approximation.</p>
<p>Of course if your RRSP is smaller to start with than the couple in the example, than the lower RRSP contributions will make more of an impact. If you have a $1 million nest egg already, then the reduction in your RRSP contributions will be negligible.</p>
<p>Let me know if you want the spreadsheet.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris B.</title>
		<link>http://www.investingintelligently.com/2007/02/07/paying-down-debt-vs-contributing-to-an-rrsp/#comment-5876</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Feb 2007 01:08:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investingintelligently.com/2007/02/07/paying-down-debt-vs-contributing-to-an-rrsp/#comment-5876</guid>
		<description>No, we're not very close to 20% equity yet.  We didn't put much money down, and we just bought the place one year ago.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, we&#8217;re not very close to 20% equity yet.  We didn&#8217;t put much money down, and we just bought the place one year ago.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.investingintelligently.com/2007/02/07/paying-down-debt-vs-contributing-to-an-rrsp/#comment-5874</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:16:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investingintelligently.com/2007/02/07/paying-down-debt-vs-contributing-to-an-rrsp/#comment-5874</guid>
		<description>$63/month is a significant cost so maybe that should tilt the argument towards paying the mortgage down sooner?  Are you close to getting to the 20% equity?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>$63/month is a significant cost so maybe that should tilt the argument towards paying the mortgage down sooner?  Are you close to getting to the 20% equity?</p>
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		<title>By: Chris B.</title>
		<link>http://www.investingintelligently.com/2007/02/07/paying-down-debt-vs-contributing-to-an-rrsp/#comment-5872</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Feb 2007 16:51:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investingintelligently.com/2007/02/07/paying-down-debt-vs-contributing-to-an-rrsp/#comment-5872</guid>
		<description>I have something to add to the equation that I am trying to calculate in my own life.  My wife and I don't have 20% equity in our home yet, so we are paying $63 for PMI every month.  Normally I am an advocate for putting more money in a retirement account rather than paying down a low-interest rate mortgage, but in this case, it may be advantageous for us to pay down the mortgage until our PMI is removed.  What do you guys think?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have something to add to the equation that I am trying to calculate in my own life.  My wife and I don&#8217;t have 20% equity in our home yet, so we are paying $63 for PMI every month.  Normally I am an advocate for putting more money in a retirement account rather than paying down a low-interest rate mortgage, but in this case, it may be advantageous for us to pay down the mortgage until our PMI is removed.  What do you guys think?</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.investingintelligently.com/2007/02/07/paying-down-debt-vs-contributing-to-an-rrsp/#comment-5855</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Feb 2007 05:10:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investingintelligently.com/2007/02/07/paying-down-debt-vs-contributing-to-an-rrsp/#comment-5855</guid>
		<description>As I said over the at the Canadian Capitalist, there is another assumption in these calculations:

The calculations assumed the same marginal tax rate when contributing to the RRSP and the same when withdrawing from the RRSP later. For some this may be true, for others, maybe not. Again, it’s an assumption and one that can affect the results you get out in the end.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I said over the at the Canadian Capitalist, there is another assumption in these calculations:</p>
<p>The calculations assumed the same marginal tax rate when contributing to the RRSP and the same when withdrawing from the RRSP later. For some this may be true, for others, maybe not. Again, it’s an assumption and one that can affect the results you get out in the end.</p>
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		<title>By: Canadian Capitalist &#187; Comments on RRSP Tip # 1</title>
		<link>http://www.investingintelligently.com/2007/02/07/paying-down-debt-vs-contributing-to-an-rrsp/#comment-5854</link>
		<dc:creator>Canadian Capitalist &#187; Comments on RRSP Tip # 1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Feb 2007 04:35:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investingintelligently.com/2007/02/07/paying-down-debt-vs-contributing-to-an-rrsp/#comment-5854</guid>
		<description>[...] made an excellent post on the mortgage versus RRSP debate and concluded that the answer depends on what assumptions are [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] made an excellent post on the mortgage versus RRSP debate and concluded that the answer depends on what assumptions are [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Canadian Capitalist</title>
		<link>http://www.investingintelligently.com/2007/02/07/paying-down-debt-vs-contributing-to-an-rrsp/#comment-5853</link>
		<dc:creator>Canadian Capitalist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Feb 2007 03:44:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investingintelligently.com/2007/02/07/paying-down-debt-vs-contributing-to-an-rrsp/#comment-5853</guid>
		<description>Dave: My mistake. I should have read the article more carefully. Still, the first two points apply to the article.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave: My mistake. I should have read the article more carefully. Still, the first two points apply to the article.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.investingintelligently.com/2007/02/07/paying-down-debt-vs-contributing-to-an-rrsp/#comment-5838</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Feb 2007 18:12:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investingintelligently.com/2007/02/07/paying-down-debt-vs-contributing-to-an-rrsp/#comment-5838</guid>
		<description>Oh, well I think CC and I are referring to the PDF, not the book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, well I think CC and I are referring to the PDF, not the book.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.investingintelligently.com/2007/02/07/paying-down-debt-vs-contributing-to-an-rrsp/#comment-5837</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Feb 2007 17:35:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investingintelligently.com/2007/02/07/paying-down-debt-vs-contributing-to-an-rrsp/#comment-5837</guid>
		<description>I was just referring to CCs comment.  I don't recall the details from the book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was just referring to CCs comment.  I don&#8217;t recall the details from the book.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.investingintelligently.com/2007/02/07/paying-down-debt-vs-contributing-to-an-rrsp/#comment-5836</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Feb 2007 17:09:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investingintelligently.com/2007/02/07/paying-down-debt-vs-contributing-to-an-rrsp/#comment-5836</guid>
		<description>He doesn't actually draw on the RRSP all at once. He said:

"Scenario 1 shows a higher RRSP value, but to access those funds the Harts would have to pay taxes on any withdrawal. To pay off their mortgage, they would have to cash in $198,336 of their RRSPs, pay $79,334 in tax at 40 percent,
and be left with the required $119,002. That would leave them with only $58,438 in RRSPs versus $91,974 for the debt pay-down scenario. The higher amount of net worth is deceptive because a large portion of it is pre-tax."

I'm assuming this is the paragraph that you are both referring to? No where does that one-time RRSP withdrawal enter into his calculations. He is simply demonstrating that after 11 years, to really calculate their total assets correctly you have to take the RRSP as being pre-tax (and multiply it by (1-T)) and the house and liabilities as being post-tax. In other words he's using an example of pulling all the money out of the RRSP at once to demonstrate the fact that in Scenario 1 they don't quite have so much compared to Scenario 2 as it looks because the RRSP in both scenarios will be taxed eventually upon withdrawal.

For anyone else, I'd like like to clarify that his total assets calculation is probably not the ideal way of doing it. His "total assets" line includes the addition of pre-tax assets (the RRSP) and post-tax assets (the house) and liabilities (the mortgage). It is probably better to convert all to post-tax, then add them up. In other words the entire RRSP should have been multiplied by (1-T), where T is some assumed marginal tax rate before being added to the other assets.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He doesn&#8217;t actually draw on the RRSP all at once. He said:</p>
<p>&#8220;Scenario 1 shows a higher RRSP value, but to access those funds the Harts would have to pay taxes on any withdrawal. To pay off their mortgage, they would have to cash in $198,336 of their RRSPs, pay $79,334 in tax at 40 percent,<br />
and be left with the required $119,002. That would leave them with only $58,438 in RRSPs versus $91,974 for the debt pay-down scenario. The higher amount of net worth is deceptive because a large portion of it is pre-tax.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m assuming this is the paragraph that you are both referring to? No where does that one-time RRSP withdrawal enter into his calculations. He is simply demonstrating that after 11 years, to really calculate their total assets correctly you have to take the RRSP as being pre-tax (and multiply it by (1-T)) and the house and liabilities as being post-tax. In other words he&#8217;s using an example of pulling all the money out of the RRSP at once to demonstrate the fact that in Scenario 1 they don&#8217;t quite have so much compared to Scenario 2 as it looks because the RRSP in both scenarios will be taxed eventually upon withdrawal.</p>
<p>For anyone else, I&#8217;d like like to clarify that his total assets calculation is probably not the ideal way of doing it. His &#8220;total assets&#8221; line includes the addition of pre-tax assets (the RRSP) and post-tax assets (the house) and liabilities (the mortgage). It is probably better to convert all to post-tax, then add them up. In other words the entire RRSP should have been multiplied by (1-T), where T is some assumed marginal tax rate before being added to the other assets.</p>
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