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	<title>Comments on: Should Young People Hold Bonds in Their Retirement Portfolios?</title>
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	<link>http://www.investingintelligently.com/2006/03/13/should-young-people-hold-bonds-in-their-retirement-portfolios/</link>
	<description>Not just another (Canadian) financial blog</description>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.investingintelligently.com/2006/03/13/should-young-people-hold-bonds-in-their-retirement-portfolios/comment-page-1/#comment-227</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Mar 2006 01:49:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>klauss, sounds like Malkiel talking... and I just started reading A Random Walk Down Wall Street this morning. I going to totally be an indexing nazi after reading that book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>klauss, sounds like Malkiel talking&#8230; and I just started reading A Random Walk Down Wall Street this morning. I going to totally be an indexing nazi after reading that book.</p>
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		<title>By: klauss</title>
		<link>http://www.investingintelligently.com/2006/03/13/should-young-people-hold-bonds-in-their-retirement-portfolios/comment-page-1/#comment-226</link>
		<dc:creator>klauss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Mar 2006 21:04:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Perfoming better than an index is almost impossible over long periods of time.  And when fees are not in your favor, neither are the odds.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perfoming better than an index is almost impossible over long periods of time.  And when fees are not in your favor, neither are the odds.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.investingintelligently.com/2006/03/13/should-young-people-hold-bonds-in-their-retirement-portfolios/comment-page-1/#comment-225</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Mar 2006 17:42:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thanks CC, the 10 year return means a lot more than any more recent returns. The 0.23% difference is very small.

Actually, I&#039;m not sure where you are looking, but on &lt;a href=&quot;http://globefunddb.theglobeandmail.com/gishome/plsql/gis.fund_pro?fundname=TD+Canadian+Bond&amp;pi_universe=PUBLIC_FUND&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;globefund&lt;/a&gt;, it says 7.72% (10 yr) for the benchmark as of the end of February 2006 and 7.94% for the fund. They also show the 15 yr though which is 8.99% for the benchmark and 8.69%, so if we look at the 15 yr the TD Canadian Bond Fund actually did worse! Interesting. The index globefund is comparing it against is the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.scotiabank.com/cda/content/0,1608,CID701_LIDen,00.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;SC Universe Bond Total Return Index&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks CC, the 10 year return means a lot more than any more recent returns. The 0.23% difference is very small.</p>
<p>Actually, I&#8217;m not sure where you are looking, but on <a href="http://globefunddb.theglobeandmail.com/gishome/plsql/gis.fund_pro?fundname=TD+Canadian+Bond&#038;pi_universe=PUBLIC_FUND" rel="nofollow">globefund</a>, it says 7.72% (10 yr) for the benchmark as of the end of February 2006 and 7.94% for the fund. They also show the 15 yr though which is 8.99% for the benchmark and 8.69%, so if we look at the 15 yr the TD Canadian Bond Fund actually did worse! Interesting. The index globefund is comparing it against is the <a href="http://www.scotiabank.com/cda/content/0,1608,CID701_LIDen,00.html" rel="nofollow">SC Universe Bond Total Return Index</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Canadian Capitalist</title>
		<link>http://www.investingintelligently.com/2006/03/13/should-young-people-hold-bonds-in-their-retirement-portfolios/comment-page-1/#comment-224</link>
		<dc:creator>Canadian Capitalist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Mar 2006 17:17:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investingintelligently.com/2006/03/13/should-young-people-hold-bonds-in-their-retirement-portfolios/#comment-224</guid>
		<description>Hmmm... this might turn out into yet another active / passive investing debates but with reference to bond funds. If a bond fund beats the index, it means they do something different from the index that is working. The question you have to ask yourself is: will it work all the time in the future? Maybe, maybe not. 

The evidence seems to be that a significant majority of funds underperform their indices. Of course, there are some exceptions and hopefully TD Bond Fund is one of them.

FYI: 10 year returns of TD Bond Fund is 7.9%. The benchmark index would have returned 7.67% over the same period.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm&#8230; this might turn out into yet another active / passive investing debates but with reference to bond funds. If a bond fund beats the index, it means they do something different from the index that is working. The question you have to ask yourself is: will it work all the time in the future? Maybe, maybe not. </p>
<p>The evidence seems to be that a significant majority of funds underperform their indices. Of course, there are some exceptions and hopefully TD Bond Fund is one of them.</p>
<p>FYI: 10 year returns of TD Bond Fund is 7.9%. The benchmark index would have returned 7.67% over the same period.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.investingintelligently.com/2006/03/13/should-young-people-hold-bonds-in-their-retirement-portfolios/comment-page-1/#comment-223</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Mar 2006 06:47:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Investorial: Interesting you mention the home buyer&#039;s plan... I have been meaning to write a post about this.

&quot;The reported returns are net of the fees anyways&quot;

I fully agree. I almost never look at MER to be honest because as you say, the reported returns are always net of the fees anyways.

&quot;For example, if an advisor charges more but consistently outperforms the market, I don’t see the hesistation of fees should come into play.

There is such a thing as being frugal and overhead conscious, but don’t forget that quality doesn’t necessary come cheap. What’s important is the quality and consistency.&quot;

Well said and I have nothing to add to that. I just copied it out verbatim so more people see it. :-)

Well I do have one more thing to say. A real live example. Ross Healy&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.accumulus.ca/ft5.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Accumulus Talisman Fund&lt;/a&gt; collects 1.95% MER every year plus &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.strategicanalysis.ca/ATF/fundfacts.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;20% of the amount the fund outperforms the S&amp;P/TSX 60&lt;/a&gt;. How&#039;s that for an MER. You could be looking at well over 2% MER there. At the end of January it&#039;s one-year performance was 30.4%. They do not have much long-term performance since they&#039;ve only been around since February 2004.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Investorial: Interesting you mention the home buyer&#8217;s plan&#8230; I have been meaning to write a post about this.</p>
<p>&#8220;The reported returns are net of the fees anyways&#8221;</p>
<p>I fully agree. I almost never look at MER to be honest because as you say, the reported returns are always net of the fees anyways.</p>
<p>&#8220;For example, if an advisor charges more but consistently outperforms the market, I don’t see the hesistation of fees should come into play.</p>
<p>There is such a thing as being frugal and overhead conscious, but don’t forget that quality doesn’t necessary come cheap. What’s important is the quality and consistency.&#8221;</p>
<p>Well said and I have nothing to add to that. I just copied it out verbatim so more people see it. <img src='http://www.investingintelligently.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Well I do have one more thing to say. A real live example. Ross Healy&#8217;s <a href="http://www.accumulus.ca/ft5.htm" rel="nofollow">Accumulus Talisman Fund</a> collects 1.95% MER every year plus <a href="http://www.strategicanalysis.ca/ATF/fundfacts.html" rel="nofollow">20% of the amount the fund outperforms the S&#038;P/TSX 60</a>. How&#8217;s that for an MER. You could be looking at well over 2% MER there. At the end of January it&#8217;s one-year performance was 30.4%. They do not have much long-term performance since they&#8217;ve only been around since February 2004.</p>
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		<title>By: Investorial</title>
		<link>http://www.investingintelligently.com/2006/03/13/should-young-people-hold-bonds-in-their-retirement-portfolios/comment-page-1/#comment-222</link>
		<dc:creator>Investorial</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Mar 2006 06:21:28 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Why focus on the 1% fee when the fund has beaten the index 4/5 years? The reported returns are net of the fees anyways, meaning that the fund actually did 1% better than reported, right?

For example, if an advisor charges more but consistently outperforms the market, I don&#039;t see the hesistation of fees should come into play.

There is such a thing as being frugal and overhead conscious, but don&#039;t forget that quality doesn&#039;t necessary come cheap. What&#039;s important is the quality and consistency.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why focus on the 1% fee when the fund has beaten the index 4/5 years? The reported returns are net of the fees anyways, meaning that the fund actually did 1% better than reported, right?</p>
<p>For example, if an advisor charges more but consistently outperforms the market, I don&#8217;t see the hesistation of fees should come into play.</p>
<p>There is such a thing as being frugal and overhead conscious, but don&#8217;t forget that quality doesn&#8217;t necessary come cheap. What&#8217;s important is the quality and consistency.</p>
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		<title>By: Investorial</title>
		<link>http://www.investingintelligently.com/2006/03/13/should-young-people-hold-bonds-in-their-retirement-portfolios/comment-page-1/#comment-221</link>
		<dc:creator>Investorial</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Mar 2006 06:17:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I&#039;m enjoying your stories that tie your personal situations to the post more and more.

I think for young people, another factor in the allocation has to be their goals for the money. Goal-oriented allocation means that short-term, long term goals play a major part. Most people will have a weak heart for putting money into equities with the looming prospects of a home purchase within 5 years. 

The equity portion can be oriented for retirement goals while bond portions can geared for short/mid-term uses. I myself, don&#039;t see much point of holding short term investments for any reason, any age and I&#039;m glad Ben Graham felt the same. Admittedly, this model may skew the ratio more towards bonds, depending on what stage of life the young people are in.

I prefer to have any bond portion tucked inside an RSP, and being able to leverage the home buyer&#039;s program. And keeping as much of the tax advantaged equity investments outside.

The Intelligent Investor is an amazing book, one of my must-reads for people looking to get into investments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m enjoying your stories that tie your personal situations to the post more and more.</p>
<p>I think for young people, another factor in the allocation has to be their goals for the money. Goal-oriented allocation means that short-term, long term goals play a major part. Most people will have a weak heart for putting money into equities with the looming prospects of a home purchase within 5 years. </p>
<p>The equity portion can be oriented for retirement goals while bond portions can geared for short/mid-term uses. I myself, don&#8217;t see much point of holding short term investments for any reason, any age and I&#8217;m glad Ben Graham felt the same. Admittedly, this model may skew the ratio more towards bonds, depending on what stage of life the young people are in.</p>
<p>I prefer to have any bond portion tucked inside an RSP, and being able to leverage the home buyer&#8217;s program. And keeping as much of the tax advantaged equity investments outside.</p>
<p>The Intelligent Investor is an amazing book, one of my must-reads for people looking to get into investments.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.investingintelligently.com/2006/03/13/should-young-people-hold-bonds-in-their-retirement-portfolios/comment-page-1/#comment-219</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Mar 2006 00:30:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>CC: interesting, actually I had thought that a bond fund&#039;s annual returns included changes in the value of its bond holdings, but I had assumed incorrectly that it only included realized value. Not sure why I assumed that. Anyways, my advisor and I did talk about XBB before, as well as looking at buying individual bonds. I&#039;ll have to look into these possibilities a little more closely. I guess the main question would be whether active management in bond markets is as (in)effective as it is in equity markets? As you noted this fund has beaten the benchmark 4 out of the past 5 years but I wonder how likely it will be that they can repeat that performance?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CC: interesting, actually I had thought that a bond fund&#8217;s annual returns included changes in the value of its bond holdings, but I had assumed incorrectly that it only included realized value. Not sure why I assumed that. Anyways, my advisor and I did talk about XBB before, as well as looking at buying individual bonds. I&#8217;ll have to look into these possibilities a little more closely. I guess the main question would be whether active management in bond markets is as (in)effective as it is in equity markets? As you noted this fund has beaten the benchmark 4 out of the past 5 years but I wonder how likely it will be that they can repeat that performance?</p>
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		<title>By: Canadian Capitalist</title>
		<link>http://www.investingintelligently.com/2006/03/13/should-young-people-hold-bonds-in-their-retirement-portfolios/comment-page-1/#comment-218</link>
		<dc:creator>Canadian Capitalist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Mar 2006 23:50:37 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I just checked and the bond fund has beaten the benchmark index in 4/5 past years. Hopefully, it will continue to do so in the future.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just checked and the bond fund has beaten the benchmark index in 4/5 past years. Hopefully, it will continue to do so in the future.</p>
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		<title>By: Canadian Capitalist</title>
		<link>http://www.investingintelligently.com/2006/03/13/should-young-people-hold-bonds-in-their-retirement-portfolios/comment-page-1/#comment-216</link>
		<dc:creator>Canadian Capitalist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Mar 2006 22:48:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Dave: Note than any bond fund&#039;s annual returns includes &lt;em&gt;changes in the value of its bond holdings&lt;/em&gt;. Last year, yields on most bond maturities fell (and prices would have increased as bond yields and prices move in opposite directions). If yields rise this year (they have been rising recently), a bond mutual funds returns will be the coupon interest less any negative change in the value of its holdings.

IMHO, 1% is a steep fee for a bond mutual fund, when cheaper alternatives exist (XBB, for instance).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave: Note than any bond fund&#8217;s annual returns includes <em>changes in the value of its bond holdings</em>. Last year, yields on most bond maturities fell (and prices would have increased as bond yields and prices move in opposite directions). If yields rise this year (they have been rising recently), a bond mutual funds returns will be the coupon interest less any negative change in the value of its holdings.</p>
<p>IMHO, 1% is a steep fee for a bond mutual fund, when cheaper alternatives exist (XBB, for instance).</p>
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